Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey Yawl,

I found Fish glue in squeeze bottles late last night
on the net, would this stuff be any good or do you have to cook it yerself?



best,

Hank Cross

The subject of glue is one where little reliance should be placed on anecdotal accounts of joint failure. There are many reasons a joint can fail, but most everyone likes to conclude that it was the fault of the glue, or in some case the acetone wipe. Since of course it couldn't be anything to do with their technique, but I've noticed that when one gets the details of the failed joint, there is usually room for an alternative explanation. Put another way, one, or several instances of a certain outcome does not make for a controlled scientific experiment. Especially when other people report conflicting results, one should look for uncontrolled variables and alternative causes. [To John Mayes credit, he acknowledges this and is careful in what he claims about LMI glue]. We need always to keep in mind Feynman's warning that the easiest person to fool is yourself when drawing conclusions from some observed result.

I tried to make this simple point on another forum several months ago, and the moderator attempted to ridicule it and distort it wildly into the "silly" claim that no one should offer the group the results of their own experience. As a result of seeing that contempt for good science by the person in charge, I left the forum.

As for LMI white, I have had nothing but good results.

[edit] Simon, you illustrate my point. When I read, "no chance of error on my part," I thought you were joking and that the story would lead up to how you found your mistake, after all. Believe me, there is always the chance for error on your or my or anyone's part. Your technique was assumed to be infallible, ergo it had to be the fault of the glue. But what you describe--gaps in the joint-- is almost certainly caused by your jointing or clamping technique. Probably the latter. How do you imagine that the glue caused gaps? Did you test your hypothesis by seing if the results were repeatable with another joint using LMI? That was a rhetorical question . Google Feyman's lecture "Cargo Cult Science." He of course puts it better than me.Howard Klepper39090.6195138889

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I always like to read a discussion on the values and uses of different glues. I think as modern luthiers we should look at the history of why certain glues (and woods) were used but be open to new products and ideas. HHG was the pinnacle of high technology when Stradivarius and later Torres did their amazing work. These masters could probably have used library paste and acheived good results. (Remember grade school? that was the glue we used to eat in art class.) The answer will not likely be obtained in our life times. We will be judged on our workmanship and glue choices by future generations if our guitars stand the test of time.

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Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/

Guys,

Fish glue in a squeeze bottle, ixnay?


Does it have to be cook like HHG?



Hank

I agree, great post Howard and all you other guys as well for sharing your experiences in the matter of glue. The OLF for me is a key educational source and a great help in my guitar building adventures. Being able to read and learn from the personal experiences of guys like these is a real blessing for all of us. I hope that you more experienced guys will continue to share your honest opinions, and I think John Mayes has done it very kind and nice on this issue even though his experience were not great.

I have used LMI White on some applications and have not had any problems.

Mike

Hank.....

Fish glue does not need to be heated. It is ment to be used right out of the bottle.

Where did you find it on the net? There have been a few posts specifically on fish glue over the past several weeks, where there is mention of a couple of good sources. Take a look at this thread on fish glue

Oh sorry for the tangent to fish glue, but the question was asked here.

edit....

Oh, I see that you started this thread Hank Rod True39091.1171759259

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Howard you are definitely correct. It was a late night post and my
wording wasn't as specific as it could have been - one of the errors of
written communication.

What I meant was no chance of error with the joint prep. There is simply
nothing I can think of with regards to my clamping pressure or the joint
prep that were not completely ideal. I am a fairly smart guy and knowing
how to correctly torque a clamp and avoid a starved joint is well within
my capabilities as a woodworker.

I had mentioned this experience in more detail many months ago but I
had the same result with the LMII glue on a separate neck that I prepared
one day later after the first one had some issues. It was a different kind
of neck wood (wenge) and it had the exact same problem with very small
issues at the glue-line. And when I say issues I am not talking about joint
failure - but rather a non flawless result. I also didn't mention that the
glue seemed tackier that it had previously been and did seem to "set up"
very quickly. I also used the LMII glue to later perform a couple quick
glue tests with titebond and LMII glue. The LMII glue did the job but not
as well as titebond. I have done a quick glue test years before and LMII's
did just as well/better than titebond. So there is a bit more to this story
that you would have known from just my post here today.

In retrospect, someone spoke up about having to move quickly when
using LMII glue, especially when it is spread thin. I meant to chime in
earlier in this thread that perhaps I moved to slowly during the glue-up.
In other words, perhaps my gluing technique was to blame.

If I may restate, the point of my post was just to share that though I had
excellent results in the past with LMII white glue, I had trouble with it
despite good joint prep and proper clamping technique. That leaves
either a bad bottle of glue or some unknown issue with my gluing
technique. Sorry if I confused anyone or sounded like I was bashing
LMII's glue. I think it is an excellent glue - I just wanted folks to know
that, like Mayes, I have had an issue with it at one time.


Peace Out,


SimonF39091.1089583333

Hey,

OK, I'm sold on Fish Glue, read the thread.




Best,

Hank

LMI glue does set up a lot faster than Titebond, as Simon noted. With a multi-layer laminate, it may have set up too much to squeeze out fully in the layers where it was first spread. That's not a flaw in the glue; it's something the user needs to take into account in his technique (as Simon also noted). I have always used Titebond for neck lams, btw.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

LMI clearly states that the glue line is very suseptible to water weakening the joint. I play outside in the summer time some and often sweat on the guitar. I'd be afraid to use fish glue on any part you're likely to sweat on.


Maybe it wasn't LMI, but the LV catalog, I can't remember for sure.

Ronold man39091.5524652778

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Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=ToddStock] Bravo, Howard - nicely put.

For those interested in the reference:

Richard P. Feynman's 'Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! (Adventures of a Curious Character)'

An easy read for non-physicists as well...[/QUOTE]

And don't forget ... "So what do you care what other people think?" That is a great one too.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=old man] LMI clearly states that the glue line is very susceptible to water weakening the joint. I play outside in the summer time some and often sweat on the guitar. I'd be afraid to use fish glue on any part you're likely to sweat on.


Maybe it wasn't LMI, but the LV catalog, I can't remember for sure.

Ron[/QUOTE]

As far as sweat goes, you'd really need a truck load to get into a joint to do any possible damage. Also, if sweat can seep into a glue joint to open it up, there certainly should be a question regarding the finish first.

When a company talks about moisture problems, they don't mean the 3-4 hours of sweating or even elevated humidity changes that happen between seasons. Fish glue has been around for a long time (dating back 3500 years along with hide glues)and if it were so susceptible to a small change in moisture it wouldn't have been continued in used.

I think that there could be a little too much worry there Ron, I know you want to be cautious but that may be a bit too cautious there my friend.

I think a good test for someone who has some fish glue (I don't otherwise I'd do the test) is to glue up some solid pieces and soak them in water for say 2, 4, 6, 8.....24 hours. See what happens to the joint.

There are many many documented uses for fish and hide glue, not only for wood construction but for paint binders, paper seals over ink etc...

Here's a quick read about fish glues.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Do you think that Andy Manson used fish glue on his Mermaid guitar ?

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De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Thanks, Rod.

Pretty funny, Dave.


Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......